Interview: Aida Edemariam meets sociologist Professor Zygmunt Ba... http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2007/apr/28/academicexperts.higher...
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Interview: Zygmunt Bauman
Aida Edemariam
The Guardian, Saturday 28 April 2007
In recent years it has become a kind of fashion - especially in those countries, such as
Germany and Poland, that suffered most directly from the ideological excesses of the
mid-20th century - to excavate, point fingers and take the moral high ground. Rootling
in long-closed files makes for good, titillating copy; it is generally couched in terms of
truth-seeking and boil-lancing, and in some senses genuinely is. However, it is also
worth asking questions about the relevance now of some of these discoveries, and
whether they should be allowed to overshadow entire lives; but also, as Timothy Garton
Ash argued recently in this paper, to work out exactly what the context and reality was
at the time, and to understand precisely what present-day agendas are behind how these
revelations are discussed.
Last year the subject/scapegoat was Günther Grass, who to some extent forestalled the
finger-pointers by writing in his autobiography of his short-lived service in the SS; now
it is the turn of the eminent Polish sociologist Zygmunt Bauman. An article in the
rightwing Polish magazine Ozon, by historian Bogdan Musial, has alleged that Bauman,
who has lived and taught in Leeds for over 35 years, was for a while in the pay of the
Polish secret service, and that he participated in the political cleansing of opponents of
the regime. The story has been picked up, heatedly, in Germany, where his work is much
revered. Andreas Hess, a lecturer in sociology, repeated it in the Irish Times. Bauman
has two books being published in the UK at the moment, and it seems a good idea to ask
for his side of the story.
"Look, I won't dignify Musial with an answer," says Bauman, his face contracting and
his voice deepening, and answering anyway. "I don't want to give weight or importance
to something which is [composed of] half-truths and 100% lies. What is true in his
article is not new, because everybody knew I was a communist" - from 1946 to 1967 -
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Interview: Aida Edemariam meets sociologist Professor Zygmunt Ba... http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2007/apr/28/academicexperts.higher...
"and that I served also for several years in the 'internal army', so called." The only new
fact, he says, is that he did join the secret service, but only for three years, when he was
19, and for this "I bear full responsibility."
It is a response of a piece with his ideas, one of which is that modernity has created the
perfect conditions for individuals to act unethically; and that taking personal
responsibility and acting morally is a greater test than it has ever been before. So, in
Modernity and the Holocaust (1989), he argued that complicity in the Final Solution
was not a product specifically of Nazism, or of an unusual coming-together of evil
people, but of a modern system, an intricate bureaucracy in which obedience to
superiors was prized above all, and whose layers partially obscured to ordinary people
the consequences of their actions.
In nearly 50 books (25 of them published since he retired from teaching in 1990) he has
devoted himself to understanding the society we live in, and in the process has become
one of the most highly esteemed social critics in Europe.
Bauman's particular achievement has been to mount a sustained critique of
totalitarianism while at the same time, like some of the thinkers he admires, such as
Richard Rorty and Richard Sennett, retaining an essentially socialist belief in the ethical
necessity of equality and justice. Increasingly he has also been a critic of the Third Way,
and of globalisation. So Consuming Life, to be published next month, argues that our
consumerist society, in which everything is judged according to its market value, and
discarded if found wanting, applies, with terrible consequences, to our most intimate
relationships as well. Why commit to a relationship if you can always bin it and try
another one? We are losing our ability to "establish firm, solid, reliable and satisfaction-
bringing relationships with other people," he says.
Bauman was born in Poznan, Poland, in 1925, so he was a teenager when the Germans
invaded. His family caught the last train east to Russia. When he was old enough he
joined the Fourth Division of the Polish exile army in Russia - not the Red Army, as is
usually reported - with whom he entered Poland.
"Poland was a very backward country before the war, which was exacerbated by the
occupation. In an impoverished country you expect deprivation, humiliation, human
indignity and so on, a whole complex of social and cultural problems to be dealt with. If
you looked at the political spectrum in Poland at that time, the Communist party
promised the best solution. Its political programme was the most fitting for the issues
which Poland faced. And I was completely dedicated. Communist ideas were just a
continuation of the Enlightenment."
And so, at 19, "when I hadn't even started my life", he became a member of the
Communist party, and, by an accident of history, he says - because the Fourth Division
was co-opted for the job, rather than, say, the second or third - became a member of the
"internal army" - the force charged with "suppressing terrorism inside the country - the
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Interview: Aida Edemariam meets sociologist Professor Zygmunt Ba... http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2007/apr/28/academicexperts.higher...
equivalent of that fashionable phrase now, 'the war against terrorism'. This is public
knowledge - everybody knew that. I never hid it." He wrote political pamphlets for
soldiers. "My job there was very dull, in fact."
"The fact that I for three years cooperated with intelligence - well, that's the only thing I
never said." What did that involve, exactly? "Well, it's counter-espionage. Every good
citizen should participate in counter-espionage. That was one thing that I kept secret,
because I signed an obligation that it would be kept secret ... So that's the only thing. All
the other 'news', so called, is completely in error."
Did counter-espionage mean informing on people who were fighting against the
communist project? "That's what would be expected from me, but I don't remember
doing [anything like that]. I had nothing to do - I was sitting in my office and writing - it
was hardly a field in which you could collect interesting information." Did you do
anything at all that might have had adverse consequences? "I can't answer that
question," he says, upset now. "I don't believe there was any. At the same time, I was a
part of a wider scene, and of course everything you do has consequences." What else did
Musial's article get wrong? "Everything else. For example - just to give you an example -
no. I really don't want to speak about it, because you've pushed me into doing exactly
what I didn't want to do, assigning significance to something which is irrelevant."
Bauman soon quit the secret service, and as for the Communist party, "gradually, like so
many others in my position, I came to the conclusion that there was a yawning gap
between the official word and the practice ... so I became a revisionist, rejecting the
official version of Marxism."
He would pay dearly for his apostasy. "The thing that is completely missing from the
stories is that though I cooperated for two, three years, I was the object of persecution
from the secret services for 15 years. Immediately afterwards, I was spied on, I was
reported on, I had my flat bugged, my telephone was bugged, and so on. I was thrown
away from the internal army, and in the end, as you know, I was expelled from the
university, expelled from any ability to publish." An anti-semitic purge in 1968 meant
that both he and his wife Janina lost their jobs. A mirthless laugh. "If the author of this
lampoon was really working in the archives he'd probably discover that the files
dedicated to me as the enemy are much thicker than the files dedicated to me as a
collaborator. But I wouldn't expect balance from him ... I feel more like a victim, really,
in this case." They joined their daughter in Israel, but he was not a Zionist, and they felt
uncomfortable. By the time they arrived in Leeds they were in their 40s.
He sees his "outing" as part of a new kind of witch-hunt under way in Poland, a process
of legitimisation for the rightwing government of Lech and Jaroslaw Kaczynski. "I think
that's the explanation - I have never made a secret that I am a socialist. I was leftwing, I
am leftwing, and I will die leftwing. Hopefully. So by discrediting me they may obliquely
discredit the political left in Poland." And it is true that the brothers, who see themselves
as moral patriots stamping out the remnants of communism, seem to be following a
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Interview: Aida Edemariam meets sociologist Professor Zygmunt Ba... http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2007/apr/28/academicexperts.higher...
policy of disclosure and systematic file-leaking that involves vetting hundreds of
thousands of people, a number of whom stand to lose their jobs. Some may well have
done things for which they deserve to be called to account, but the atmosphere is
reportedly poisonous. Bauman's treatment is thus, he says, "explicable in terms of a
certain context ... That's what's going on. Nothing particularly novel about it, nothing
very sensational, it's just how things are."
Does he think those three years were a mistake? "They're part of my biography. I bear
full responsibility for that. At that time it seemed to me the right thing to do ... Some
choices in everybody's biography can be looked upon as wrong choices, except that it
doesn't seem to be a wrong choice at that time. When I was 19 years old I didn't know as
much as I know now that I'm 82."
· Consuming Life is published by Polity
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